Michael McElgunn — The man leading the battle to keep Ireland safe 

Yet, the overall threat of terrorism in Ireland is still assessed as “moderate”, including the threat from international terrorism, which mainly relates to IS and associated groups.

In an interview with the  Irish Examiner, An Garda Síochána’s intelligence chief Assistant Commissioner Michael McElgunn points out that the international threat is mixed in with other modern phenomena including migration flows, and online radicalisation.

He says that when the IS so-called caliphate in Syria and Iraq collapsed during 2018 and 2019, there was widespread concern across the EU, including Ireland, at the return of its citizens who had gone to fight there, including with violent Islamist groups.

“There were the risks associated with returning foreign fighters and the risk they might pose — that risk didn’t materialise to any great extent,” AC McElgunn says.

New Islamic State threat 

As head of the Garda National Crime & Security Intelligence Service (GNCSIS), he says most of the IS-inspired attacks across Europe since 2020 have been by “lone wolf-type” individuals.

“So we are mindful now that we find ourselves in a situation where quite a number of people are in the custody of the Kurds [in northern Syria and Iraq] and in the near future those people will be released from custody,” he says. “And the issue then is where do they return to and what threat is associated with them.” 

He says there were “some people with Irish connections” and that these people could come to Ireland.

“So, we need to keep an eye on that.”

AC McElgunn says two of his senior people from Security & Intelligence, the core intelligence section of the GNCSIS, recently travelled to a major EU conference to examine international terrorism threats.

“Intelligence sharing, needless to say, is central for all of us,” he says.

One issue that has been emerging is an assessed threat from an offshoot of IS, which has its base in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

“There has been a concern for a while, and it's growing, around one element of Islamic State, this Islamic State Khorasan Province [ISKP]. This group has emerged and has a threat in over half of EU states and has a small presence here. And this is a group that certainly has an intent of concern.” 

One piece of research by the US Institute of Peace, published last June, found the group poses a “growing threat to the West”.

Back in March, a number of US military and intelligence leaders said the ISKP could launch an attack in the West before the end of this year.

US Central Command’s General Michael Kurilla said: "They can do external operations against the US or Western interests abroad in under six months with little to no warning.” 

AC McElgunn says that in the last six months, his service organised a major operation to prevent a key figure in this group from arriving into Ireland.

Recently working with the Government we took steps to ensure that one individual associated with that group — a person of concern not just to us but to others — was not successful in attempts to come to Ireland. He did try, but he was unsuccessful.

On a wider front, across all IS-type groups, AC McElgunn says numbers are relatively small in Ireland compared to many European countries: “I would say in terms of key individuals of concern we’re talking about low double figures and then, the wider grouping, support for them, who come on our radar from time to time, you’re bringing it up to the higher end of double figures. That’s the range but it can flex up or down.” 

Terror funding

Around the same time the interview was taking place, details of a separate and lengthy counter-terrorism operation were emerging, with six foreign nationals appearing before the Special Criminal Court on terrorism financing charges.

He says this is just one of a spate of investigations in recent years, targeting groups and individuals suspected of funding IS groups abroad.

“About five years ago, we set up a group within Special Branch [Special Detective Unit] to investigate terrorist financing and they are now investigating, on average, 60 cases of terrorist financing a year,” he says.

Asked if this is a lot of cases, he says: “There’s a lot of activity in the financial world and a lot of these are small transactions.” 

He says the intention of people is to keep the payments small in a bid to avoid alerting suspicious transaction mechanisms. Both individuals and organised groups are involved, he adds.

AC McElgunn says the SDU is assisted by the Terrorist Financing Intelligence Unit in the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau.

Tied into this threat is the speed at which radicalisation is taking place online, he says.

What we’ve seen in the counter-terrorist world is a very rapid radicalisation process. Historically, this was a slow process and indoctrinated in a very false ideology associated with Islam.

He says Ireland is fortunate in the established moderate Muslim communities and the relationship built up with mosques through community policing.

He says over time this has allowed leaders and members of those communities to alert gardaí if ever they have concerns about a person.

“That’s why the greater concern is around individuals radicalising themselves,” he says.

His officers from the National Security Intelligence Unit travel abroad to engage with sister security agencies and even “embed” in them to ensure Irish practices meet the best practice abroad.

“Most importantly, we have that secure network where we share intelligence on an ongoing basis,” he says.

Suspects can be identified on online chat rooms, through intelligence gathered via the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (CHIS) system and other means, including alerts from partner agencies.

“We’re constantly gathering in this country,” he says, “so it’s not just what’s shared or what tips come from the community, there is gathering around online activity and physical groups and we have professional analysts to work through the material to try and identify individuals who are potentially of concern. It could be something like adding a comment to a thread sometimes.” 

Rise of the far right

He says the threat from online radicalisation crosses the various threats the GNCSIS deals with and includes the threat posed by what the service describes as ‘political extremism’, including from the far right.

“For a few years now we have seen online radicalisation in counter-terrorism. Now were are seeing it in political extremism, particularly those with the far-right ideology,” he says.

Proponents identify people “who are a little bit vulnerable or more isolated”, who, in some cases, might have conditions or disorders that lend themselves to being “consumed” with an ideology.

Observers of some far-right organised protests in recent years can see indications of this.

Amid regular criticism from anti-fascist groups and other organisations that gardaí are standing too far back from clamping down on the increasingly aggressive, even violent, right-wing protests, AC McElgunn spells out the role of his service.

He says the protests tend to fall into three categories:

• legitimate protests, which he says the State is obliged to vindicate;
• a middle category where behaviour may fall foul of the criminal law, such as breaches of public order laws;
• a third category, where there is an intent or plans to use “political violence”.

“It is that third category that very much falls into our bailiwick as a national security matter,” he says.

Our interview was conducted before the recent ugly protest outside the Dáil, where elected representatives and parliamentary staff were prevented from going about their business and certain politicians were subject to intimidation and verbal abuse.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae required a robust Garda escort to get to safety during which he was pushed and a thrown missile narrowly missed his head.

Speaking after he said there was “no coherent” message from those protesting other than to hurl verbal abuse and racist language.

The cathaoirleach of the Seanad, Jerry Buttimer said the protest was “an attack on the institutions of the State”.

The group, around 200 strong, was comprised of a wide mix of far-right agitators, including prominent figures from Dublin, Cork and Galway and small groupings from Dublin and Cork, including those involved in recent anti-migrant protests in East Wall, Ballybrack, and Finglas.

Gardai arrested 13 people at the protests and they have been charged.

Justice Minister Helen McEntee, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, and Tánaiste Micheál Martin all issued strong statements about the behaviour, with Mr Martin describing it as close to “fascist”.

Last Friday, Ms McEntee requested Commissioner Harris conduct a security review of Leinster House and a protection review of TDs, senators, and parliamentary staff.

AC McElgunn says it is very difficult to put numbers on those on the ‘far right’ spectrum that they are aware of and monitoring.

But he says the “big upsurge” in numbers of people attending protests during covid across a wide range of issues associated with the far right — from public health restrictions and vaccines to migration, housing, abortion, nationalism, trans rights, and a range of conspiracies — has seen a “huge fall off” since the pandemic lifted.

This is a view shared by some anti-fascist groups who welcomed the relatively small number who attended the Dáil protests last Wednesday.

The views come in the week of an analysis in The Economist magazine on the advance of the “hard right” across much of Europe, which found that parties that were once “relegated to the fringe” are going from “strength to strength”.

It said four of the five most populous countries in the EU have hard-right parties in government or polling above 20%.

Ireland, Iceland and Lithuania are the only countries not to have political parties of the far right elected, to date.

The Economist said hard right parties are exploiting various issues – migration and the demographic makeup of countries, gender equality and trans rights, but also energy costs, fuel prices, and climate change costs.

Self-radicalisation

AC McElgunn is concerned about the impact the public figures on the far right can have on particular individuals.

“A lot of research would suggest that those who are prepared to take violent action of one sort or another are not necessarily those high-profile individuals who do plenty of pieces to camera and grandstanding in the public,” he says.

“So, if you go back to the self-radicalised individual we were just talking about – the lonely person, not too many friends, isolated, maybe with some mental health issues or certain conditions - they get consumed by an idea and slowly then plan an attack. The high profile people are no part of this anymore, they simply propagated their opinion.” 

One of the conspiracies – around fears of 5G phone masts – has again reared its head.

“Over the last couple of weeks there were a number of attacks on 5G masts in the west of Ireland,” he said. 

An operation was put in place and a couple of nights ago my colleagues down in Mayo arrested a man in military fatigues, who had taken counter-surveillance actions, and they arrested him in the act of damaging one of these masts.

The fact that this was a person who attired himself in military-style clothing and was knowledgeable enough to try and cover his tracks is something of concern to the NCSIS.

“It probably demonstrates how these views and opinions lead an individual, a lone actor, to go ahead and take action,” he says, adding that there is a wider issue to examine.

“In a general sense, could somebody be radicalised in that way, not to commit criminal damage, but to do an act of violence? Of course, it’s quite possible.” 

He says where far-right protests meet counter-protests can be “flashpoints” for violence and that there is an obligation on the police to put in sufficient resources to ensure the “rights of both parties can be expressed without a flare-up”.

He says this is the “great value” of a unitary service — of police and security — in An Garda Síochána in that “all of the components” come together and there are no information or intelligence “silos” involving separate agencies.

Speaking before last week’s Dáil protest, he said he feels the Garda organisation has got it right so far in how it is handling the anti-migrant and far-right protests.

He cautions against suggestions that gardaí should be “heavy-handed” with these protests.

“I think we have hit the balance so far,” he says, but adds that they use a decision-making model and if they have to intervene they will.

AC McElgunn dismisses the regular refrain of far-right individuals engaged in anti-migrant protests – that most of those coming in are “military-aged men” who pose a threat to women and children.

“Part of our remit is to look at people who come to the country to assess who they are and what the risk might be,” he says. “And, we are not seeing any significant risk around the people who have come here for international protection in recent years, but we continue to monitor that.

“I think that’s a comfortable narrative for some, but the majority of people from Ukraine are elderly, or women or children. There are some men and you would expect that we will take an interest in some, certainly some of them, but not in any significant numbers.” 

Funding for far-right groups is another concern for the GNCSIS, an issue that was raised in a 2020 report by Europol, the EU police coordination agency.

“We assess that some funding to groupings to the right of the political spectrum has its origins in like-minded US groups or individuals,” AC McElgunn says.

The issue of funding came under the spotlight recently in the bizarre internal row within the National Party over ‘missing’ gold bullion deposits.

The gold, valued at around €400,000, was moved from one safe inside National Party offices to another safe.

Some sources suspect the party could be on the verge of “imploding” and that even smaller offshoot groups could form.

AC McElgunn would not comment on the case pointing out that they are conducting an investigation into the monies used to purchase the gold.

Disinformation

Another investigation the NCSIS is conducting is into a fake Department of Justice letter stating that Ukrainian men in Ireland are to be deported back to Ukraine to fight in the war against Russia.

AC McElgunn said there are three possibilities around who was behind the letter.

“There is certainly one that a state actor is behind this, the reasoning being it might be designed to change attitudes here towards people from Ukraine – that’s one possibility,” he said.

Though he is reluctant to name the hostile state that might be behind this, it is clear Russia tops the suspect list. 

But he says it is “equally possible” that people with political extreme views, who are hostile to migrants, might be behind it.

“It clearly falls into malign intent, so we will investigate that,” he says.

He says a third category is “others”, including people who “sit in their bedrooms” and come up with ideas like this but who might be not in any particular group.

He says while the informed person would conclude that the letter was fake, it was on the face of it “reasonably convincing”.

The circulation of the letter came around the same time a fake newsletter – purporting to come from Housing Minister Darragh O’Brien - was pushed into letterboxes in Malahide, north county Dublin.

The minister said the leaflets were an “obvious attempt at sowing discontent through disinformation” and that the persons involved had gone to great lengths to produce and circulate the leaflets.

AC McElgunn says similar attempts at disinformation are happening across the West: “It’s all part of what’s going on out there. Because of its truly international dimension, it can be difficult to get a handle on where it originated and who started it and then you move from disinformation to misinformation because it is further disseminated by people who don’t have a malign intent and are simply passing on something they see online.” 

He says the traditional “discerning” approach of Irish people to the media and information appears to be changing: “I think it is. Maybe we have a generation now who will make assessments about current affairs based on a Twitter headline as opposed to reading an article, looking for contrary views elsewhere to try and make a balanced decision on a particular topic. Now it becomes an instant ‘I don’t like that idea and therefore this is my decision’.” 

He says this is how “political extremists work” by snaring people into an ideology and a community.

So, you are in a wormhole online within these groups, just reaffirming your solid views,” he says.

AC McElgunn thinks covid and the public health restrictions imposed during it has played a role in all of this across Europe and North America and beyond.

“There’s no doubt there has been an unsettling of people,” he says. “I don’t think you can lock countries down for a year and a half without something emerging in the national psyche.” 

He says some people are now openly “disrespectful, hurtful and objectionable”, behaviour, he says, they would not have expressed as easily before.

“I think that does call for wider societal debate,” he says. “I’m always conscious, if I’m speaking as a senior policeman, people might say ‘of course you want stronger laws about this, that and the other', but I do think it needs to be considered. Are we, as a society, comfortable enough with some of this behaviour?” 

The European Commission has a number of agencies and research projects targeting disinformation, including the European Digital Media Observatory and the EU v Disinfo, a task force run by the EU diplomatic service.

Both projects have highlighted the prominent role of Russia in disinformation in Europe not least in relation to its unprovoked war on, and destruction of, Ukraine.

Russia

AC McElgunn is reluctant to specify countries that pose a threat to Ireland, whether it’s from espionage or subversion.

He does state that there are certain “foreign state actors” that his service concentrates its counter-intelligence units on.

“Lots of states spy on each other and we’re in no way immune from that,” he explains. “So, then there is the question of who among them are the malign actors.” 

He says Ireland works with partner countries in making this assessment: “This is something that we collaborate very closely, internationally on, so we have a collective understanding of who those actors might be.

In terms of state actors here, there are certainly four different state actors that we have an interest in and that we have a department dedicated to, assessing and investigating their behaviours in the state.

He says he is mindful that Ireland maintains diplomatic relations with a lot of these countries and that the whole issue of national security is “actually something that belongs to government”.

He says he is conscious of the very strong and consistent statements Government leaders have made about Russia in the context of the war on Ukraine, but that he is reluctant to name the countries.

But he does point out that the EU cybersecurity agency (ENISA) has highlighted the risk to EU supply chains from certain state groups associated with Russia, China, and North Korea.

(The Irish Examiner understands that these three countries, along with Iran, form the four departments GNCSIS have heightened concerns about, although some other EU states also have Turkey included.) 

“That [ENISA] is a statement that is certainly out there,” AC McElgunn says. “Those countries that I didn’t mention, but I alluded to, we are dedicated to investigations around them.” 

He confirms that four people associated with the Russian mission in Ireland were asked to leave the country in March 2022 because their behaviour was not in accordance with diplomatic protocols – code for engaging in espionage activities.

The widescale expulsion of known spies from Russian embassies across Europe, and an assessment that remaining spies were being “kept to barracks", has led to concerns that so-called ‘illegals’ are increasingly being used by Russia to continue espionage and other activities.

AC McElgunn says the work of his counter-intelligence officers is “not just in and around” missions of hostile states “but also others who might be in the community who might be associated with them”.

He adds: “This brings in the notion of ‘illegals’ in the community as well. So, sometimes, if certain state actions put pressure on a mission, well, then there’s cause and effect and maybe a threat emerges elsewhere in the wider community and that’s something we have to be alert to.” 

He declines to comment on the case of Marina Sologub, who is subject to a deportation order by the Australian government after her visa was revoked last February following national security concerns raised by Australian intelligence.

Ms Sologub, an ethnic Russian, grew up in the Glanmire suburb of Cork city and worked for a number of years in the Oireachtas before working for seven years in the National Space Centre in Cork and subsequently three years in Gas Networks Ireland and Irish Water.

In September 2020 she was granted a visa to work in Australia where she worked in the space industry and then a local authority.

It is understood that Garda intelligence was aware of her work in Ireland and provided information to their Australian counterparts when she moved there.

“I’m aware of the case, but it is before the court, I think, by way of an appeal in Australia,” says AC McElgunn. “So, in those circumstances, I won’t make any further comment about it at this time. Maybe, down the road.” 

If she fails in her appeal, Australian authorities will deport her back to Ireland. What level of monitoring the NCSIS will apply will be based on evidence and a risk assessment and what is permitted in law.

Speaking generally, AC McElgunn says certain countries do recruit people to work in certain industries.

“Ultimately, what it is about is seeking access, building relationships and then seeking to influence,” he says. “That can be in the commercial world, in the government sector and in the third level.” 

Last July, a British parliamentary intelligence body published a report documenting the serious threat posed to British universities and industry by Chinese intelligence.

It led to concerns, as reported in the Irish Examiner, from a number of Irish academics about a “very real” threat to academic interference and economic espionage in Ireland by Chinese intelligence.

The previous October a Chinese ‘police station’ in Dublin city centre was ordered to close down amid fears across Europe and North America that they could be used to control the Chinese community, particularly any dissent.

“What I’ll say on that is we did become aware that a community police station opened in central Dublin, which was associated with China,” AC McElgunn says. “There was engagement with the Chinese authorities and it was closed down.” 

AC McElgunn declines to give any insight into the numbers of people associated with the four hostile states that they monitor.

Spycraft

He says levels of monitoring — from remote online checking to 24-hour physical surveillance — is determined by a “systematic assessment process”, where the rationale is recorded and is subject to review.

“Monitoring doesn’t always mean 24-hour surveillance,” he says. “It depends on the risk level. It can be dipping in and out, it can be ongoing assessment and the cases are reviewed. If you have people under 24-hour cover that becomes a big deal – and it’s a big deal in any country, no matter what resources you have.” 

He adds it is not just a resource issue, but also a “human rights issue” regarding the privacy rights of a person being monitored.

He says 24-hour surveillance can come into play where there is a threat under Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which places a legal obligation on states to act in order to protect people’s right to life.

“Ultimately that is down to an Article 2 concern, where there is an immediate risk to life,” he says. “Where there is an immediate risk to life then, regardless of the cost, we are obliged to put the resources in place.” 

He says the numbers subjected to this high level of surveillance are “small” and cover a range of threats, including Northern Ireland-related terrorism.

AC McElgunn says his service adopts different approaches, including the old-fashioned “doorsteps” to let suspects know they are being watched.

“Depending on the level of threat, it might be as simple as a direct approach and you’d sort of doorstep the person and let them know ‘we know who you are, we know what you are doing, we continue to monitor your activities and we would advise you to desist’.” 

Like much of this type of work, it rarely becomes public.

Shining a light on the fight to keep Ireland safe

Assistant Commissioner Michael McElgunn recently said that when he first joined what was then called Crime & Security in the late 1990s he knew very little about what they did and that their workings were “highly secretive”.

That view persists to this day among observers and academics, and, to a large extent, even within the policing side of An Garda Síochána.

But AC McElgunn, who took charge of the National Crime & Security Intelligence Service (NCSIS) last February, believes it has changed.

He is currently preparing for the first-ever oversight body for national security in the shape of the Independent Examiner.

The Examiner, recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland (CoFPI) in September 2018, is provided for in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill currently going through the Oireachtas.

The exact powers available to the Examiner have been the subject of some scrutiny and even controversy, but have gained only limited interest within the Oireachtas.

The bill legally protects the NCSIS if it refuses to provide intelligence information to the Examiner if it believes it will jeopardise the flow of crucial intelligence from security agencies abroad.

This is unlike other agencies abroad, including the oversight body in Australia, which is legally entitled to see everything.

But AC McElgunn stresses his policy is one of transparency: “We currently work with High Court judges on covert activities and our default option has always been full disclosure.

“So, we won’t hold anything back unless there is a pressing national security concern around it. But we haven’t actually reached that point. So, whatever the judges have wanted to see we are disposed towards transparency insofar as possible.” 

He adds: “I am mindful that on behalf of the state we are given covert powers and a lot of what we do is done in secret. People have rights, rights around personal freedoms. There has to be a balance and that balance will be the independent examiner. 

"It is our obligation to be as transparent as possible and where we’re not transparent to do that in a way that clearly sets out the rationale in that instance.” 

In fact, he hopes the examiner will champion their case, whether it is in relation to powers, resources or technology, as it will compare what Gardaí have compared to other countries.

The NCSIS currently has around 1,000 people – gardaí and garda staff (civil servants) working for it.

It has four divisions, each headed by a chief superintendent.

The biggest division is Security & Intelligence, which is the central section of NCSIS, and based in its own secure facility in Garda Headquarters.

S&I has three main sections – the National Security Intelligence Unit (NSIU), the National Criminal Intelligence Unit and the National Surveillance Unit.

The NSIU has departments for counter-intelligence, counter-terrorism (sub-divided into Northern Ireland and International), technical operations (spying & surveillance orders as well as online monitoring) and cyber security.

The NSIU conduct all liaison with overseas intelligence agencies, such as MI5, CIA and FBI.

NSIU and NCIU have a shared specialist skills unit, such as language, legal and analysts.

Spinning off S&I are two operational divisions – the Special Detective Unit and Special Tactics & Operations Command (STOC), which includes the Emergency Response Unit, the Armed Support Units and the National Negotiation Unit.

The fourth division is Liaison & Protection, which deals with Government security and international liaison with police agencies.

Mr McElgunn is in the process of restructuring the NCSIS to align sections for the Examiner’s oversight, versus those under the Policing Authority and the Justice Minister.

He points out that GNCSIS is responsible under legislation for “internal” security and that national security as a whole is a Government responsibility.

He says the National Security Analysis Centre (also recommended by CoFPI) was tasked with coordinating the country’s security and intelligence agencies, including the Gardaí, the Defence Forces and the National Cyber Security Centre.

In its report, the CoFPI said the Garda security service “must be strengthened”, including “a ringfenced budget” and the ability to hire specialists directly and quickly.

This was “a matter of urgency” it said - five years ago exactly.

“That was a recommendation and that hasn’t developed yet,” says AC McElgunn, “but, there’s more to be done.”