The Two Norries: 'We are proud to be from the northside of Cork city and we want to own it'

“I remember singing my brains out down in the cell and asking my brother to come in so I could ask him what he thought of my Black is the Colour. I was so passionate about it. And then, last week to have Christy down in the studio and to be able to sing that song with him,” he says.

He can’t quite believe the turnaround: “It was a very emotional experience for me and it showed me how far I have come.”

James Leonard, co-host of the hugely popular The Two Norries podcast, also rates the interview with Christy, their 141st episode, as a particular highlight.

Neither man can quite believe their growing popularity, but they are making the most of it because by sharing their “experience, strength and hope”, as they put it, they hope they can help others to get whatever help they need.

Their choice of the words “experience, strength and hope” is important. They echo those used in 12-step programmes of recovery but, more than that, they offer a perfect description of what Timmy Long and James Leonard are doing.

They do not want to dwell on their past experience of addiction and criminality; rather use it to show how they found the strength to pursue a different life and, in doing so, give hope to others.

As James says: “We have this story that people say is inspirational. We know loads of people like us who are equally inspirational, if that’s the word you want to use, but they never get the platform. We hope that by speaking on our podcast, we can give people who are feeling hopeless in their bedrooms, or elsewhere, a glimmer of hope.”

That glimmer of hope can completely turn a person’s life around. For James, it was a few words from a guard that helped him start his journey in recovery a decade ago. “I was sleeping on couches and sleeping in sheds. I was overdosing and isolating. I had a close call with an overdose and a guard showed me a bit of concern and, out of that, I just thought I’d give recovery one more try.”

In December 2012, he rang a treatment centre and was admitted the following June. Since then, sobriety has opened up options he never thought possible. In the last decade, James has returned to university and qualified with a degree in youth and community work and a masters degree in Criminology. He has also been awarded a fully funded scholarship to pursue a PhD.

That is on hold for now as life has never been busier. He gave up his job earlier this month to devote himself full-time to The Two Norries podcast.

Though, ‘podcast’ is too small a word for it as the duo have just sold out the Cork Opera House, again, for their live show in March. There’s a book in the pipeline too and they also give motivational talks to a wide range of groups, from youth organisations and companies to the prison service, schools and colleges.

Timmy Long, on the other hand, can trace the moment his life changed to St Stephen’s Day in 2011. “I had a really powerful experience while in a cell in the Bridewell in Cork. I had this glimpse of awareness for the first time in my life. It was like everything in my life had led up to this moment in time.”

He had been arrested earlier and, at first, the only thing that was going through his mind was how he was going to get drugs or drink. “Then, this voice in my head just said to me, ‘Is this how your life is going to be forever? I couldn’t do it any more. I got up off the floor, jumped up on the mattress and cried myself to sleep. That was it for me.”

The next day, he went to his doctor and his recovery began. It involved counselling, anti-depressants and a stint in a treatment centre. He still had a prison sentence to serve, but was so grateful to be able to spend two weeks sober at home with his now-wife Nicole and rekindle their relationship before he went to jail.

Prison proved to be a positive experience because, he says, it cosseted him in early recovery and gave him the supports he needed. He learned to read and write. He also went to counselling, worked with personal development groups and started to go to AA.

“That’s where my journey of recovery started. I didn’t even know my PPS number and I had never sent out an application in my life,” he says.

Timmy now has an honours degree in construction management and runs his own property maintenance and construction company which employs people who are in recovery.

He is also halfway through the first year of a two-year masters degree in mindfulness at University College Cork.

“If you had asked me 11 years ago what mindfulness was, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you. And I probably would have laughed at you if you mentioned meditation. I didn’t know what it was or how it could help you,” he says.

Now he is perfectly at ease talking about how using his breath as an anchor helps him to cope with the difficult emotions that will always bubble to the surface after his experience of childhood trauma and an early life in addiction.

It also helps him to deal with issues he has had to face in sobriety. While in college, he found out he was dyslexic. The diagnosis came as a relief, he says. “I thought there was something wrong with my brain. I thought I was stupid, but I’m a visual learner.”

Last December, he found out that he has Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), a condition that can make concentration and study difficult. He is still coming to terms with it, but says the diagnosis helps him to understand a lot of his early impulsiveness as a child and why he appeared to be so accident-prone.

Timmy Long and James Leonard continue to chat, taking in every subject under the sun from life/work balance, their surprise success as media stars, the coup of getting renowned addiction expert Dr Gabor Maté and psychiatrist Bessel van der Kolk to appear on the podcast, to their love of dogs.

James says dogs played a huge part in his recovery.

“Addiction made me a kind of cold person. I think you have to be to survive that kind of life. When I came into recovery, I went over to the CSPCA dogs’ home in Mahon with my wife Gillian, partner at the time, and got a red staffie called Rusty.”

He has had Staffordshire terriers since and has two dogs now, Skye and Zeus. “They bring out your nurturing side,” he says.

Timmy has two dogs, as well, Marley and Sara.

In all of it, though, it’s clear that both men feel the people who have helped them most in their respective recoveries are their wives.

James says his wife Gillian was the first to make him believe that university was there for him, if he wanted it. “Once university became an option for me, my whole idea of who I was and who I could be changed. Home ownership, career — I had closed off all of those things. I had self-limiting core beliefs.”

Having someone see your potential was a gamechanger.

Timmy says his wife Nicole never stopped believing in him, through thick and thin, and that helped him to start to believe in himself. “She could always see the person behind the addiction,” he says.

He says he is blessed to have her and their two children, Georgia (16) and Jay (11).

They both hope that The Two Norries podcast will help others to see the seed of potential in themselves. When listeners get in touch — and so many do that they have had to hire an administrator — they signpost them to the various available services.

“That can be difficult, particularly for men,” says James. “It’s not seen as a masculine thing to talk about how you are feeling. It’s not true; you can still be a man’s man and look after yourself.”

The podcast aims to raise tough issues and talk about them in a way that is informative, sensitive, educational — and humorous. Both podcasters believe you can always have a laugh in the process.

But there is a secondary aim and that is to break down stigma. James explains: “We want to get people in the wider community to think differently about people who are homeless, in prison or in addiction and to give them a bit more understanding and compassion.” That aim to break down stigma and tired old stereotypes also explains the origin of the name of their podcast.

“We are Norries and we are proud. People might associate a Norrie with someone on social welfare who wears a tracksuit. We are very proud to be from the northside of Cork city and we wanted to own it,” says James.

And they certainly do that in style.